Run ugly ads that show the product and the pain in the first second

David BarnardSo other than just setting the expectations of the marketing team that you should expect some big failures and you should expect some uncertainty and some big movements, how do you organize around this idea and how do you find and try weird things that are going to give you that? And then also maybe there's some amount of safeguards you should put in place to not go too crazy with it.

Yuliya LennoxNo, nothing is too crazy. And also nothing is too, if I can say it, nothing is too ugly. There is this famous saying like make ugly ads. I think we invented that and I believe in that hundred percent because people don't want the TV shots at any point. They want something that catches them on the first glance. And it is hard to do that. And now that I turn into creative marketing a little bit, I have to stop myself knowing this and telling this on all the podcasts all the time that please, please don't make the pretty ads. Don't listen to Claude when they tell you which creatives to create and then they give you a 15-second creative. No, don't do that. Always be like first, second. You need to understand what you are selling and what you are doing.

Yuliya LennoxThis is very, very important. Yes. So guardrails should be around really knowing that you are not a marketer that is a Coca-Cola marketer that sells a brand that is 200 years old, that is known by everybody already. You are selling something that nobody knows about basically. And when you come to traditional marketing actually, what they tell you first, when you're launching a brand, you should start with something that is super about the …

David Barnard… you should be encouraging your CEO or whatever, that when there's a big hurdle, the CEO should probably be pretty hands-on trying to solve that specific thing. It is something I respect a ton about RevenueCat CEO, Jacob. It's one of the things he's done really well over the years is when there is a big blocker or a new thing that we really need to push on, he gets really involved in a way that I think shows the company this is a priority.

David BarnardIt also engages all his experience and knowledge and effort and passion to make it work. A founder is just going to have the passion to make it work in a way that an employee just never will. No matter how good of an employee, there's just a difference. And so yeah, I totally agree. And I would say not just for bootstrapping, but any CEO when you're facing a roadblock should really jump on that and get into the nitty-gritty and help be part of the solution. It's funny when you were talking earlier about ugly ads, it reminded me that the most kind of shocking ugly ad that I saw in probably, it was probably the time you were there at BetterMe was this really gross belly fat ad.

Yuliya LennoxIt's the best one. It's the best one. I love it so much. Yeah.

David Barnard… performant ad. And it was one of those things where it really grabbed your attention because it was almost shocking to see this illustration with this fat just hanging off the front. And it's like to your exact point, I vividly remember that one specific ad from a decade ago because it was so shocking. And that's kind of the point. The point is that it got people's attention. Do you remember that ad specifically? And then any other thoughts on-

Yuliya LennoxThat is the best ad ever. I loved it completely. Yes, it was invented during the time I was there. But it also means that you have a very good eye for it because you don't remember the skinny girls that were working out obviously, but you do remember something that chocks you and that this is the thing. Yes, it's completely about taking the person out of the grid of scrolling your feed. And sometimes your feed is so pretty that you need something ugly to take your attention from it. So yes, this is why it works for sure.

David BarnardHow do you think about those kind of ad as you do become a brand though? So for example, I was just talking about Ladder. Ladder is at a point in scale and what they're trying to do, they partnered with a massive influencer, actually movie star, music star. And so at their level, they wouldn't want to run that kind of ad. When do you think you shouldn't be doing those kind of ugly ads? When does it actually tarnish the brand? Or are we just too …