Have the founder join every marketing meeting and write the ads himself

David Barnard… any money. The beauty of subscriptions though is if it's at all retentive, then by the next year you should start cash flowing a little better. But then you got to think about it as this year-long investment where you're working full-time, making almost nothing to hopefully get it out of retention in year two to make it work. So back to your original point, it's like it's probably a pretty hard app to bootstrap into and would take a lot of work.

Yuliya LennoxWell, talking about bootstrapping actually, the second app that I moved to was fully bootstrapped. And when I joined it, it was doing 35K per month in traffic with a lot of spending. So it was quite a challenge. And it actually taught me something that is also very important for all the app founders. And it is don't look for a silver bullet, don't look for a CMO, don't look for a person that will save you from your own troubles. It will happen if you meet someone great, if you're super, super lucky. But most of the times, if you are the founder type, you will figure it out in marketing yourself and you need to put a lot of effort into understanding marketing. You are probably a smart person that have understood much harder things in your life. And please don't think that it is... It's not hard.

Yuliya LennoxIt's not hard at all to understand marketing, but to feel it with your own hands, this is something that every founder needs to know. Why I'm talking about it here, because it was an app called EWA: Learn English, and at some point it was number two after a Duolingo and it has an amazing team. And the founder, he actually was super into marketing. He was on every marketing meeting. He was doing it all himself. He was thinking of creatives himself. And when I left, he actually was like, "Well, I want to do it. I want to do it because it's also my passion. It's my product. I want to make sure that I talk about my product in a way that people will understand it." And I appreciate that greatly because in people when they understand that they love their product enough to actually promote it and to talk about it very, very much.

Yuliya LennoxAnd so basically you should do it all yourself on... We talked about at some point about the first one-person startup, unicorn startup, something like that where you don't need anyone anymore. And this is the first fear where I do still think that you need developers because that's too hard to understand for any normal person, sorry. But I do think that marketing is something that everybody's a marketer and you can understand it. As a founder, …